The Entrepreneur's Recipe: How to Build Success Without Burnout

When we hear the word "entrepreneur," we often imagine the hustle, the long hours, the sacrifice — almost like it's a badge of honor to run yourself into the ground for your business.

But what if that’s not the way?
What if you could build success without burning out?
What if there’s a different recipe?

In this episode of The Amanda Kaufman Show, I sat down with my dear friend and founder of Pacific Perks, Natalie Fairchild, to talk about what it really looks like to build a business that supports your life — not one that consumes it.

When Life Changes, So Does the Plan

Natalie’s business wasn’t born out of a lifelong dream to become an entrepreneur — it was born out of necessity. When her husband was diagnosed with multiple sclerosis, everything shifted. She knew she needed to create something that allowed her family to have flexibility, financial stability, and the ability to prioritize health.

That’s when Pacific Perks was born — a mobile event catering business that started with coffee bars and has grown into multiple service lines across multiple states.

But here’s what makes Natalie’s story so powerful: she never bought into the hustle culture lie. She knew from day one that she didn’t want to trade one kind of chaos for another. She intentionally built her business in a way that allowed her to have time for her family, space for her team to grow, and freedom to actually enjoy the life she was building.

You Don’t Have to Work Yourself to Death

One of my favorite moments from our conversation was when Natalie said:

"It’s a myth that you have to run around with your head cut off to be an entrepreneur. You don’t have to do that. The beauty of being an entrepreneur is you have control of your schedule."

This is such an important message, especially for high-achievers and business owners who feel like the only way to grow is to give more and more and more of themselves.

But it’s simply not true.

The real magic happens when you intentionally design your business to support the kind of life you want — whether that’s time with your kids, travel, rest, or creative space.

Natalie built her business around a schedule that worked for her family. For years, she left the office every day at 3:30 to be home when her kids got out of school. That rhythm eventually became a part of her company’s culture, and her business didn’t suffer because of it — it actually grew stronger.

Build Capacity, Not Chaos

One of the biggest keys to Natalie’s success is how she’s approached delegation and leadership.

She’s incredibly clear on what she does well — and what she doesn’t. And she’s not afraid to bring in people who are stronger in areas that aren’t her natural strengths.

"I’m all about pulling in people that have the skill sets that are not my strengths. No ego about that."

Instead of trying to do everything herself (a trap so many entrepreneurs fall into), she built a team where everyone operates in their zone of genius. She knows her numbers, but she has people who manage the P&Ls. She inspires the team, casts vision, and supports growth — while trusting her people to own their areas.

This allows the business to scale without burning anyone out — including Natalie.

Creating a Culture of Independence

Another big theme from our conversation was culture — and how critical it is to create an environment where your people feel both empowered and supported.

Natalie shared:

"Creating a culture where people are seen and heard and they have autonomy and they have the ability to grow and take on different things that they're interested in really helps."

Not everyone on your team wants to be an entrepreneur — and that’s okay. Some people thrive with stability and clearly defined roles. Others want the chance to grow and take on new responsibilities. A great leader creates room for both, while still maintaining accountability and clear expectations.

By building a culture that honors independence and ownership, Natalie has created a business where people want to stay, contribute, and grow.

Know Your Recipe — And Live It

At the heart of everything Natalie shared was this simple truth:

"Know what your recipe is. Figure out that recipe. Then live your recipe."

There’s no one-size-fits-all formula for success. The way I build my business may not be right for you. The way Natalie built hers may not be right for someone else.

The key is to know what matters most to you — your values, your priorities, your capacity — and build your business around that.

When you do, you’re not fighting against yourself. You’re not trying to keep up with someone else’s hustle. You’re building from alignment — and that’s where sustainable growth happens.

You Are In Control

If you take anything away from this episode, let it be this: you don’t have to burn yourself out to build something meaningful.

You can create success on your own terms. You can build a business that supports your life. And you can give yourself permission to let go of the hustle and create your own recipe.

Natalie’s story is proof of what’s possible when you build with intention.

Want to go deeper?

If this conversation resonated with you, here are a few ways to take the next step:

• Grab my free Thrive & Scale Expert Blueprint: https://thecoachesplaza.com/the-thrive-and-scale-blueprint

• Subscribe to The Amanda Kaufman Show: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-amanda-kaufman-show/id1450993176

• Watch more episodes on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@theamandakaufmanshow

• Follow me on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theamandakaufman

• Connect on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandackaufman/

• Join Clients Over Chaos for more coaching & support: https://login.thecoachesplaza.com/communities/groups/clients-over-chaos/home
  
  

Chapters List

00:00 Introduction to Entrepreneurship and Balance

02:57 The Courage to Innovate: Natalie's Journey

05:39 The Myth of Corporate Safety

08:16 Delegation and Team Dynamics

10:45 Finding Balance in Entrepreneurship

13:18 Redefining Success and Flexibility

16:18 Embracing Constraints for Creativity

18:49 Conclusion and Key Takeaways

Full Transcript

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (00:00)

it's a myth that you have to run around with your head cut off and be an entrepreneur. That's a myth. You don't have to do that.

Amanda Kaufman (00:24)

Well, hey, hey, welcome back to the Amanda Kaufman show. And I am so excited to introduce you to my friend, Natalie Fairchild. So Natalie is the founder of Pacific Perks, and she's agreed to come and join us on today's episode to talk about being more powerful, you know, in your entrepreneurship, building real work-life balance. And we're going to see where the conversation takes us. But hey, thanks for joining us today. Natalie, welcome to the show.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (00:53)

Thank for having me. I'm happy to be here.

Amanda Kaufman (00:57)

So excited.

So why don't you take 30 seconds and help the listener understand what is it that you do?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (01:04)

Yeah, so my title, even though I'm founder CEO, I like to go by Chief Inspirational Officer because I feel like that's what I love to do is inspire people, get them to their best potential. And I do that, whether I'm on a board or a committee or my team or looking for the next franchisee for Pacific Perks. That's what I want is bring people up and let them know that they can.

they can do whatever they want. So Pacific Perks is a unique business. We're a mobile event caterer. So we have 10 different services. Now, one of the big one is our espresso bar, espresso bar catering. However, we're not a truck, we're not a kiosk. We load up the equipment, we drive to the event, set it up, and we charge a flat fee. And then whoever's been invited to that event gets to enjoy it for free.

So we're all about creating experiences.

Amanda Kaufman (02:00)

That's really, really cool. So I have to ask, like, what inspired that original idea? You know, it is always a courageous thing for an entrepreneur to be like, I'm going to do this thing, but there's going to be this edge to it. There's going to be a big difference and a distinction for it. Like, what inspired this for you?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (02:18)

Well, it's so funny you say the word courageous because the people entrepreneurs are thought to be very courageous. Absolutely. However, what inspired this was a life change, like something needed to happen in our life. My husband, who I endearingly refer to him as that has MS, multiple sclerosis and

We were in our thirties, Amanda. were, you know, people were climbing the ladder, kind of finding their groove on what they wanted to do. And our hands were just slipping down the ladder because MS was changing, you know, we, we'd adjust new normal go along and then there'd be another change. So at the time we had had my girls and I wanted to be a stay at home mom, but I quickly realized I loved being a mom and I was an entrepreneur for

for sure because I started a design business and I had my hands in a bunch of different things. And at the time we needed to get Jim out of the corporate world. And so we, that's how Pacific Perks was born. We decided to move back to the Pacific Northwest where my support system is. And it was all about surviving really. We need to balance our life. We need to sustain our family financially.

and have success there and something's got to change now. So that is why.

Amanda Kaufman (03:41)

You know, that necessity is such a powerful drive for a high achiever and a high performer. And you know, sometimes necessity comes from within, you you identify that thing, that fire, that spark that you need to pursue. And so often the reality is necessity can come from outside and from the unexpected. And I am really further curious, you know, because

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (04:07)

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (04:08)

You know, entrepreneurship is pretty risky and you are a very smart Petutti. So I know you did the Googling. I know you did the, know, here's the statistical chance of us surviving this. Right. And yet you still chose this pathway. And so I'm curious if you had this similar experience because I did the same thing with the Google and I did a risk assessment in my own life.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (04:20)

Right.

Okay. Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (04:35)

and it actually felt riskier to stay the course of corporate.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (04:39)

which is so good for you to do because I think that there's this feeling that corporate is so safe, but it isn't. If you're an entrepreneur, let's say, and COVID happens or, you know, some businesses didn't make it, but you know, something big happens. You are not going from here to zero. You still have business that you can produce and you have control over that to kind of adjust and make things happen.

Amanda Kaufman (04:45)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (05:07)

If you're in

the corporate world and things go down, which they do, you're at zero. You're at starting point. And so we kind of forget that.

Amanda Kaufman (05:16)

totally I

completely agree with you and I'm so excited you're saying it because I think the suit the the perception of corporate safety is not something we've talked about a lot on the show but I'd like it is a huge huge myth that you are safer in a j-o-b necessarily

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (05:25)

for a procedure.

Amanda Kaufman (05:37)

especially and I'm curious if this was true for you because a lot of entrepreneurs, especially the good ones, the ones that are able to entrepreneur even if things change. So you're right. A lot of businesses went down in flames, you know, due to the pandemic. And also there were people who exited entrepreneurship because of that and then went and rejoined, you know, traditional workforce. But there were also a lot of entrepreneurs that, yes, the business died.

But they then turned around and they created something new. They moved into a different space. They did because they, the human being that was driving the business, like they are the entrepreneur and where there's a will, there's a way, you know? ⁓

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (06:16)

Yeah, it's just that fire

we have inside of us that knowing that I'd love to, I'd love to get a great word for it, but you know, that time when, you know, when I started speaking, I was like, okay, I'm going to start speaking. I'm scared to death, but I know I need to do this and I'm going to go do it. And just that overriding.

Amanda Kaufman (06:20)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (06:41)

faith in business over fear, or just pushing yourself, it's just something that's in me.

Amanda Kaufman (06:48)

Totally. think the thing about a traditional job pathway is you can specialize, specialize, into a particular area. I have no doubt that your events are spectacular. I haven't attended one just yet because I live in a slightly different part of the country. But with entrepreneurship, it's not good enough to be good. You've got to have that good. But then to your point, you've also got to advertise. You've also got to sell. You've also got to.

do financial management, you've got to have leadership, you've got to have people skills, right? Like there's all these skills that I feel like in traditional workforces, you can sort of like squeak by and have a minimal investment in success in that area. And that was for sure my truth. And I'm curious, like what made the biggest difference to still maintaining that balance piece?

You because there are a lot of hot mess express entrepreneurs who they're like balance. What the hell is that? Like a lot of entrepreneurs would argue balance doesn't even exist. So ⁓ you obviously had a very different context.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (07:51)

I remember some

Yeah, well, I think the blessing in having a debilitating illness in our family was that, and I compared myself, believe me, was that we weren't two able-bodied people running this business. So we do from the, from the get-go, we needed to pull people in to help us. Right. And so that created a space where we could have balance and we

could avoid burnout. And I'm all about pulling in people that have the skill sets that are not my strengths. No ego about that. Like if you ask my team, we'll all sit here and laugh and tell you what I'm really good at and what I'm not good at. And P &Ls and numbers and I mean, I can read a P &L, we go over P &Ls, but I have a person in place that is on top of it. And that's just not where I excel.

Amanda Kaufman (08:31)

Mm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (08:49)

But the things that you do really need to excel at, and I feel like has been the culprit of my success, not only the delegating and pulling people in for resources, but also the basics of business. I do a talk called Go the Extra Mile, It's Not Very Far. And I put this talk together eight years ago, and recently it's resurfaced, and I changed it up a little bit, but it is so...

It's just so important still today and people are just like, yes, yes. So, you know, it's, it's doing what you say you're going to do. You know, you can advertise, but if you don't do what you say you're going to do, that client's not going to be happy and they're going to talk about it and they're probably not coming back. Communication, you know, communication is obviously we know communication is so important, but I always like to say no update is an update.

Amanda Kaufman (09:47)

You know, that's a really, really good observation and point. When you think about this delegation piece, because so many business owners never ever figure it out, or it becomes this big struggle bus.

The other way that I see a lot of entrepreneurs sort of slam into a wall inadvertently is they over delegate. Like they refuse to let other people in, but then once they do allow other people in, there's a management problem. Like they're not necessarily, they're either, you know, I work a lot in marketing, in digital marketing, and there are so many marketers, they're super happy to charge you for thousands of dollars.

to not provide a lead or not provide any tracking or not provide the strategy. And like, I don't know an entrepreneur that hasn't been burned by that one. ⁓ So what would you say is super important to keep core, you know, even as you leverage the power of people? How do you think about that?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (10:29)

Thanks.

right.

core meaning the skill set or the task that I love.

Amanda Kaufman (10:48)

Like, I guess

what I'm saying is like the things that you keep versus the things you delegate. How do you think about that? ⁓ To make sure you don't find yourself paying for people who aren't producing results, getting the ROI, being able to get the results that you're really, really looking for. I'm curious about your perspective on that.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (10:56)

Yeah, well I know.

Yeah, yeah.

So in my team, think creating a culture where people are seen and heard and they have autonomy and they have the ability to grow and take on different things that they're interested in really helps that. And then I delegate the things that, you know, I used to do everything. I was first out on the events, front-facing.

And then I know what I'm really good at and what I'm not good at. So I delegate out what I'm not good at, but I know what I need either by just knowing as a business owner in my experience or through business coaches and learning, you know, extra learning, hey, yes, this is something we need to be doing in our business. And then with delegation, you have to delegate and then you have to circle back around and manage the delegation.

Amanda Kaufman (12:00)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (12:00)

When

I was a young leader, I just thought, well, I get stuff done. If I say I'm going to do it, I do it. However, there's the human error, right? We all, there's always something that we forget. I wrote something on my thing this morning, like, don't forget that. So there's always that, but we all need to be accountable. And I just thought that everyone just gets stuff done. They work like I do.

Well, that's not always the case. And we all have working different working styles. just one.

Amanda Kaufman (12:32)

And different working desires

too, because even if you're trying to maintain that life balance, maybe you've got the capacity considerations. I've built my business while raising lots of kids, and my dear husband has been the stay at home dad on point, but I don't want him to feel alienated. I don't want to just cordon myself off in my office the end. Balance is for sure a priority.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (12:50)

Great.

Amanda Kaufman (12:56)

The thing that I didn't totally appreciate until I actually got into the leadership piece is not everybody wants this. A lot of people want to do a good job, they want to grow, they're in a phase of growth, and even in my own journey, the early part of my career was for sure a J-O-B because that's where I got my social skills, my analytical skills, my strategic skills, my project planning skills, like skill, skill, skill, skill, skill. And different people are at different f****g

phases and have different priorities, but that doesn't mean that they can't add value to your business in a significant way. But I love your call out here of just it's tempting because you've done so much personal growth and development, so much character development to be able to carry the risk of running a business. It's easy to assume that other people have the same lens and like you're kind of weird lovingly. You're weird, right? Yeah. Yeah, a cri-cri.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (13:30)

percent.

Little cray cray, yeah.

And you need those people that are like, hey, I want to check in and I want to check out. There is a place for them, which is perfect. And then, you know, other people like us that are constantly striving for the next thing, those are great too. You need both and that's okay. And even with whether you're in a job or you're an entrepreneur.

Amanda Kaufman (14:00)

time.

You need both.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (14:16)

Sometimes people just need to go to a job and just do their little, you know, specified thing. And that's what they need. And that's who they are as a person or that time in their life. And that's totally fine. And then there's another group of us that are like, what if, or how could I, or I could see this happening or gosh, it'd be great if, you know, if you have those types of things running through your mind.

If you go around driving in town and look at businesses and go, gosh, if they could just tweak that, or I can't read their font really well on their sign, I wonder if I should go tell them that. You might be an entrepreneur.

Amanda Kaufman (14:44)

Mm-hmm.

Totally.

You might be an entrepreneur if you're always fixing stuff, right? That's not really yours to fix. You know, you might be an entrepreneur. I love that. Yeah, know that's so, so super true. So if this episode was only 30 seconds long and you wanted to leave somebody with just like here, here's the one thing that I want you to know when it comes to pursuing this business, pursuing the dream.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (15:05)

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (15:24)

you know, keeping sanity along the way, even if you are a little bit of a tornado entrepreneur, like, what would be the one thing you would want to leave them with?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (15:33)

that it's a myth that you have to run around with your head cut off and be an entrepreneur. That's a myth. You don't have to do that.

You can, that's the one thing that you do have is you have control of your schedule to a certain extent and it can be done. And that is the beauty of being an entrepreneur. And if you are an entrepreneur, you take it.

Amanda Kaufman (15:42)

Hmm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (15:58)

grab hold of it and take that and leverage that in your life to be living your best life. So I like to say like, know what your recipe is. Like my recipe has never been 40 plus hours a week. It just hasn't been. And then figure out that recipe and then live your recipe and figure out how to live your recipe with your life and with your job.

Amanda Kaufman (16:24)

Mm-hmm. ⁓

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (16:25)

And that will get

you the best version of yourself for you, for other people, and create some more flow in your life.

Amanda Kaufman (16:33)

Hmm. So good. mean, when I think about the most creative moments in my journey and a lot of my clients journey, it was it was universally facing some kind of constraint. You know, like it was a constraint on the cash flow or a constraint on the capacity or a constraint on your visibility or, you know, like I think sometimes it's only natural to fear the constraint.

of you know, I can only work so many hours or I have little people or big people depending on me and to kind let the responsibility freak you out a little bit. and so that actually was the big inspiration behind my free group Clients Over Chaos is I kept meeting all these coaches who are amazing, brilliant, high IQ, know, high impact, high desire to help people and just frozen in chaos.

And it is falling victim to exactly what you just said, which is just not honoring the recipe, not honoring that it is, you know, not not allowing for the possibility of the truth that you can operate within constrained hours. You can operate within the level that you're in and build leverage to the to the future. Yeah, please. ⁓ my God. Let's go.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (17:47)

I'm curious asking you a question. Yeah,

you know, and then there's this other thing that I'm very much trying to practice because I can be like when I'm working, I can be like, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, very focused. And when I can just keep my anxiety level down by all the things that help that, right? And take my hands off the steering wheel, like,

Amanda Kaufman (18:02)

Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (18:16)

The white knuckling like we're still staring but we're not white luck knuckling when I just go, you know what? You're right where you should be and you are doing the right things because we're high achievers. So we know we are Then I feel like things just kind of flow in but when I'm like Nothing flows in everything

Amanda Kaufman (18:18)

Mm-hmm.

Totally. Well,

and like when you think about the fight, flight and freeze, what happens are our field of vision goes like so narrow. And if you've ever felt really highly conflicted between this black and white decision, one of the most powerful things about coaching is to have a witness to that conflict and have somebody, you know, who's not not got the stakes, you know, the stakes in the process in your relationship. They don't have the same, you know, stakes of I don't want to disappoint.

people I love, don't want to, I don't want to risk payroll. I don't want to do all this to be able to just ask this question of like, is it more of a gradient? Like, is this more of a gray scale thing? Is there actually something way out here that you're not considering because you're freaked, right? And you're like, Neil, you're, you're, narrowed in. Yeah, completely. I agree. think high achievers sometimes can get over specified on what success is and also timing and also how it has to happen.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (19:23)

Yeah, I like.

Yes, timing.

Amanda Kaufman (19:34)

And that's false control.

You know?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (19:38)

can feel that one for sure when you said that. for sure. Like you said, like what success is. know, my recipe is I'm a little ops heavy, but you know what? That just gives me so much space and time to do the visionary stuff and a lot less headaches. And that is success to me.

Amanda Kaufman (19:40)

Yeah. ⁓

Yeah.

I love it. You know, so two things that came up, was like, first of all, there was there's another episode of the show that just recently got released that is with my dear friend, Chad Peavy. And he has specialized in talking about gifted and talented adults. And we were talking about how gifted and talented adults hint. If you're an entrepreneur, if you're not satisfied by the status quo and you're a little neuro spicy and you're less like, I've got to create this vision.

there's a possibility you might be actually a gifted adult. And he was saying that gifted adults, like just because they're intelligent or just because they have a high index of capability in certain areas doesn't mean that they don't struggle emotionally and struggle with like the perfectionism sabotaging their success. You know, so I love that for you that you identified for yourself. You were like, hey,

Give me lots of capacity. Give me lots of capacity to execute. Let me have team members that are running the process for me so that I have the space to use my genius and I have the space to be able to lead them. That's beautiful.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (21:07)

my life,

you know, and to live my life for sure. and that, that is, that is success for me. ⁓ you know, and I think we, I love that you brought that up because everyone has a different definition of success and I am all about, yeah. Yeah. yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (21:10)

Yeah. Yeah.

thousand percent.

Totally, totally. And the second thing that you made me think of was, was

right number shard has his app growth day does these daily fires. So I, sorry, listener, you might not be able to listen to this particular one, but you can go check out growth day. He'll, he'll drop some more gold. But the thing he said is when you're defining success, traditionally we, we define it by the goal, like goal orientation. And he added four more dimensions to that.

Right. And I feel like you've done that so well, Natalie is like you have relational goals. You have goals about like feeling goals. Like how do you want to experience the week? You know, you've got connection goals. You've got, you know, these different ways to succeed that are beyond and in addition to and in support of your outcome goals.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (21:59)

and ⁓

Right, exactly. And I definitely want to put it out there that do I never struggle with my flexibility and am I doing enough? Absolutely not. I mean, I do. I do for sure. I remember 10, 12 years ago, because of Jim's health, I was at the office and I wanted to go home and be a mom to my grade school kids. And a friend said, hey,

Amanda Kaufman (22:24)

Mm-hmm.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (22:37)

what happens from 3.30 on that you can't just leave? And I was like, I don't know. And so I tried it and for six months it took a while to feel okay about it. But now from the top down, no one's really at the office past 3.30, you know, unless there's something big going on. It's about getting the work done. It's not about chaining your desk, yourself to your desk from a certain timeframe.

Amanda Kaufman (22:49)

That's it.

Yeah.

love it. Natalie, how can people follow you?

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (23:06)

Yeah, the best way to follow me is on LinkedIn, Natalie Fairchild. You'll see my photo there and with a coffee cup. Yeah, I'd love it. And if you want to DM me, I do have a sweet perks calendar I can send you. It's a fun little marketing tool. Or if you're in a company and you want to appreciate employees or putting together events, this is a great tool. It has all the...

Standard holidays, but lots of wacky fun ones like may the fourth be with you or you know, me some ideas and inspiration Yeah, exactly. Yeah

Amanda Kaufman (23:35)

We celebrate that one. Yeah, I love

it. I love it. Well, and dear listener, if you check out the show notes, you will find Natalie's website and all of her details to be able to follow her further. Natalie, thank you so much for joining us for this episode.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (23:50)

Thank you, Amanda. It was really fun.

Amanda Kaufman (23:53)

Yeah, my pleasure. And listener, don't forget to subscribe so you don't miss another show. And if you got the 30 seconds to leave us a review, we are so grateful for you taking time to leave an honest review. And I really feel Natalie brought us a five out of five personally, but you let us know what you think. And of course, if you've got a friend who's maybe been struggling with the balance game or feeling like they have to be busy to be productive and they're looking for another way.

Natalie Fairchild | Pac Perks (24:09)

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (24:20)

Just grab the link to this episode and send it to them. Send it to three of your friends and let them hear some alternative perspectives. All right, well thank you everybody for being here and for joining us and until the next episode, do what matters.