The Real Cost of Making a Difference

The Real Cost of Making a Difference

There’s something deeply inspiring about serving others. Whether you’re coaching, mentoring, volunteering, or launching a nonprofit, that sense of purpose runs deep. But what people rarely talk about is the cost that comes with doing meaningful work.

In this episode, I had the chance to speak with Kim Fisher, a nonprofit executive and entrepreneur who has helped hundreds of people turn their passion into real impact. What made this conversation so special was her honesty. She didn’t hold back. She shared the truth about what it takes to pursue a purpose-driven path, and how financial pressure often becomes the turning point for real growth.

When Passion Is Not Enough

Many people come into coaching because they truly care. They want to help others transform. They’ve lived through hard things, grown through those experiences, and want to use that journey to lift others.

But then the reality hits.

While coaching doesn’t require inventory or a storefront, it still takes real work to build. There is time, energy, and effort involved. And as Kim said during our chat, “You have to sell someone on the idea that coaching is valuable. Then you have to sell them that you are the right coach for them.” That is two sales before you even start working together.

Kim has over 20 years of experience. She started out with all the tools: a psychology degree, a business background, and coaching certification. But even with all of that, it wasn’t enough to financially sustain her. Bills kept coming. The business wasn’t growing fast enough. And she was living in the San Francisco Bay Area, where the cost of living is no joke.

Eventually, she made a tough decision. She lost her home. That moment forced her to look at her business differently. It wasn’t a failure. It was a pivot point.

Pressure That Points to Purpose

What stood out to me was how Kim used that moment to move forward. Instead of giving up, she took a side role with a nonprofit she cared about. That opened the door to a new opportunity, and eventually, she became the CEO of an international nonprofit.

She didn’t quit on her calling. She simply found a smarter way to deliver it.

Today, Kim runs her own company, Vision Catalyst, where she helps others start their own nonprofits. She creates the structure and paperwork for organizations to become 501(c)(3) certified. She guides passionate people through the process of turning their mission into a legally recognized nonprofit that can receive donations, apply for grants, and create a long-term impact.

Nonprofit Does Not Mean No Money

One of the most important insights Kim shared is this: nonprofit does not mean no money. It means you are a steward of money. You are responsible for how resources flow in and out, and how they support the mission.

This idea is often misunderstood. Some people believe that nonprofit means volunteer-only or that you have to do everything out of pocket. But that is simply not true. In fact, Kim said something powerful. She shared, “If someone can’t pay my fees, then they probably aren’t ready to lead a nonprofit. Because raising money is part of the mission.”

That hit home for me. Just like in business, you need clarity, confidence, and the ability to communicate value. The difference is that instead of selling a product, in a nonprofit, you are selling an idea. You are inspiring people to believe in something bigger than themselves.

You Don’t Have to Be Mother Teresa

Here’s where things get really encouraging. You don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to have all the answers. And you definitely don’t have to be Mother Teresa to start a nonprofit.

Kim works with everyday people. Parents who have navigated disability with their children. Therapists who want to help foster families. Volunteers who feed the homeless on weekends. People who have seen a need and want to meet it.

They are not waiting for permission. They are not waiting until they have millions in the bank. They are starting where they are and letting their passion lead.

If that sounds like you, I want to affirm that your desire to serve matters. And you are allowed to build something that supports both your mission and your life.

Build with Intention

The biggest lesson from this conversation is that good intentions need good structure. Whether you run a for-profit business or a nonprofit organization, you need a strategy that works.

Success does not come from trying harder. It comes from getting clear on your value, understanding the people you are meant to serve, and building systems that can grow with you.

So if you’re in that place where you feel the tension between passion and profit, take a moment to reflect. Maybe it’s time to pivot. Maybe it’s time to formalize what you’ve been doing on the side. Or maybe it’s time to find support from someone like Kim who can help you do it right.

You don’t have to go broke to make a difference. But you do need a plan.

Chapters List

00:00 Introduction to Nonprofit Leadership

03:04 The Journey of Entrepreneurship

06:07 Navigating Financial Pressures

08:50 The Pivot to Nonprofit Work

11:43 Understanding Nonprofit Dynamics

14:40 Checklist for Starting a Nonprofit

17:29 Everyday Heroes in Nonprofits

20:13 Conclusion and Resources

Full Transcript

Kim Fisher (00:00)

I have a product that people buy from me. They want the product, It's whether they wanna buy it from me or from my competitor, but they buy a product because they want it.

Amanda Kaufman (00:25)

Well, hello and welcome back to the Amanda Kaufman show. I am so excited to introduce you to Kim Fisher. And Kim Fisher and I met in a common business incubator that we share. And I just loved what her whole energy, her whole vibe, it was amazing, but also what she did for a living. So Kim has over 30 years of experience as a nonprofit executive.

and she has worked in all areas of nonprofit management, including business development, training, marketing, and as a CEO. Kim's extensive experience in both domestic and international organizations has given her a unique perspective on the challenges and opportunities of the nonprofit adventure. Kim, welcome to the show.

Kim Fisher (01:15)

Thank you, Amanda. It's great to be with you here today.

Amanda Kaufman (01:18)

I was so excited when I was like, hey, Kim, can we maybe do a show together? Because there are so many people that I run into in the coaching space, especially, frankly, they're heart led people. They love people. They love seeing people thrive. very often, they want to serve as a coach. And they feel that that's the best way to do it.

I agree. mean, like you should have passion for what you do and purpose in what you do. But there's so much confusion out there about how do I, how do I build a profit as a coach? And what, what about if I'm wanting to serve populations that maybe can't afford coaching, right? Which then leads inevitably to the whole question of maybe, maybe what I'm actually called to do or should do is support a nonprofit or even build a nonprofit. And so Kim,

Kim Fisher (02:07)

Yes.

Amanda Kaufman (02:09)

I'm just so excited you're taking the time to unpack some of the ideas around nonprofit today. Thank you.

Kim Fisher (02:16)

excited to be able to share my passion very much with your audience.

Amanda Kaufman (02:19)

Yeah, I love

it. So I know that you are a very successful entrepreneur. You've been supporting yourself for a long time as an entrepreneur. And you did start out at having all of that experience as a executive in nonprofits. Then you went out on your own. Is that right? Yeah.

Kim Fisher (02:36)

did. I did. My first

business I actually became a coach and this was, I'm gonna date myself a little bit here, this was 20, more than 20 years ago and coaching was just really kind of starting to get popular at that time and I was I was a corporate, technically I worked a nonprofit in a corporate world. My last job actually was in downtown San Francisco in the financial district at a nonprofit in that area. I decided to start my own business and went through life coach training.

Amanda Kaufman (02:41)

Okay.

Kim Fisher (03:04)

loved that. have a degree in psychology, a degree in business. I've always fascinated kind of by the dynamics around people and coaching. Started that business and actually found early on, and since this is podcast, actually a lot of coaches listen to this. I'll just share this part of my story. I found early on that my real strength and experience was as a trainer, more than as being a listener to be really honest, you know? And I found that it wasn't as satisfying for me. I wasn't

as successful at it, wasn't as good at it, and I ended up becoming a business coach, because people kept telling me, how do you do all these things in your business? You figured out this, you figured out that. So next thing I know, I actually became a business coach. And that was my first business, and I loved it. Helping people create their marketing and their strategy, and how do you get clients, how do you network, that was kind of my strength and expertise at that time. That's how I started my entrepreneurial journey over 20 years ago.

Amanda Kaufman (03:57)

Love it. And you ended up pivoting. You want to share with us, like, what drove the decision to pivot? And you ended up doing what you do now, yes?

Kim Fisher (04:08)

Yes, yes. And it was interesting. I love what I did, as I said, but, you know, and again, for all your coaches listening, know, well, coaching can be a tough business to build, because what I feel like you have two sales, so to speak. You have to sell someone the fact that coaching is a valuable resource of something that they need. And number two, you have to sell them and that you are the right coach for them. So you've got two sales processes that you're really doing. That's what I experienced.

And I was, I still am a single woman supporting myself at the time I was living in the San Francisco Bay area, having a mortgage to pay. I was able to build a business that had some significant success, but not enough to support myself and pay the bills that I needed to pay. you know, as we discussed before Amanda, what ended up happening with me is I ended up losing my condo in California. I borrowed against it to pay bills during that time. And that's really...

kind of what happened in that season. So, I mean, I could call it a failed business, but I don't, I mean, the business was successful. It just wasn't successful enough to do what I needed to do with what my obligations were and my season of life was.

Amanda Kaufman (05:18)

my gosh, I really appreciate your share on that and the vulnerability there because I think one of the reasons that coaching can seem so appealing is it looks like it's a risk-free thing. Like it looks like it's this thing that, well, you know, I'm not getting a brick and mortar. I don't have any inventory. There's no manufacturing. I can deliver it myself. So like there's a lot of reasons that coaching is a very appealing business model and

Kim Fisher (05:22)

You

Amanda Kaufman (05:45)

There's certain factors. Like before we went live, you know, I was sharing just the fact that I live in Fort Worth, Texas and my cost of living is very different than if I was in the San Francisco Bay area was for sure, certainly a factor. And, you know, so one of the things that came to my mind as you were telling the story is like the pressure caused a pivot, you know, and I think sometimes we were really afraid of that pressure.

Kim Fisher (06:07)

Yes.

Amanda Kaufman (06:12)

But really it sounds like you treated it more like a signal like hey, this is not sustainable It's good, but not good enough. And so I need to pursue something that is much more Effective so can you walk me through like how did you how did you determine? That well, first of all, I guess the pivot being necessary. You probably saw it your monthly bills

But in terms of like then what next because you continued the entrepreneurial journey and you continued to stay in the lane of an expert business. So how do you know to turn in this direction?

Kim Fisher (06:34)

Mm-hmm.

Well, it was interesting, you know, how many things come your way that you don't always expect and you take the opportunities as they come. While I was still doing my coaching business, kind of as a side thing, know, again, my passion was always nonprofit and I've made 50 international trips, 40 of them to developing countries through work that I've done. And at the time I hadn't done all of that. But

It had always been an area of interest of mine. I started my career in banking actually and then ended up in my first nonprofit, I'll just kind of jump back there, working in the development area of an inner city organization in San Jose, California. So that's where I started as a 24 year old, kind of going off on that part of the journey. I said until I stepped out and started my coaching business.

And while I was doing the coaching business, I had the opportunity to take on a part-time job as a director of development for a local organization that was working in Russian orphanages. And at this time, I had already made two trips to Russia. It was an area of interest of mine, great story for a different time, especially what's going on in our world right now. And so I got offered this opportunity, which gave me income while I was doing the coaching business.

Amanda Kaufman (07:46)

Hmm.

Kim Fisher (08:00)

And then when again, in part of that journey, I ended up encountering another organization who made me a full-time job offer as CEO of Arms of Love International. And that was really what created the pivot. So I didn't decide to leave coaching and look for something else. It was the opportunities began to present themselves. And then I moved in to spend seven years again as chief executive of Arms of Love International.

I'm the love operates orphanages in Nicaragua and the Philippines, Senegal, Brazil, Mexico. So I began working in all those countries. but what it did was it took me into deeper into my own passion and skill set that I already had in the nonprofit world. And I did that for seven years and then left that in 2014.

And that was when I made the pivot to go back into being an entrepreneur again. So I had this little time in between there that deepened my skill set, deepened my credibility, and gave me that breather to kind of recoup, recapture. In the meantime, I moved to Fort Collins, Colorado, much more affordable than the Bay Area. And so it allowed me to live differently here and be able to start my business again in a more, a little bit less.

I would say less stressful, but just with less financial obligations than I had in the Bay Area. So that was kind of a quick, quick version of my pivot there and how that happened.

Amanda Kaufman (09:28)

Yes, I love that. sometimes when I'm working with people, they're struggling because that financial pressure can be very stressful. And especially if you've found yourself overextended with masterminds and certifications and programs, those things are amazing, but they don't do the work. There's work that has to be done. And I'm so curious, when you rejoined the entrepreneurial world,

What did you know right away to do differently than the first time?

Kim Fisher (09:57)

my gosh, that is the best question, Amanda. So I have, there's four things, and I will tell you exactly what they are, that I saw very differently in the two businesses that I had. So the first thing is you have to have a product that people want. we didn't even talk about what I actually do right now. So let me talk about what I actually do, and that will make more sense when I answer this question. So what I have a very unique niche in the nonprofit world.

Amanda Kaufman (10:13)

Yeah, well, what is it that people want that you're successful at?

Love it.

Kim Fisher (10:24)

is that I actually start nonprofits for people. So I create all the paperwork to have an organization become 501c3 tax exempt. And that includes everything from incorporation to creating their program narratives, to creating the board of directors and bylaws, to creating a three-year budget and filing the IRS paperwork. We maybe come back to that later in this conversation, but that's what I actually do now.

And so that is my current business. So going back to answering your question is that I had to find, so then the first thing is do you have a product that people want? Again, coaching is I think an inherently, can be an inherently difficult product to sell for the reason why I said that. Because sometimes people want it, but they can't pay for it, all the reasons for that. In my first business, that was more of a challenge. In my current business,

I have a product that people want. I've done almost 300 of these nonprofits in the last number of years. The second question is, can you find the people that you want to work with? So when I started my coaching business, I had been an employee of a nonprofit in downtown San Francisco. I had not been a life coach or a business coach. So I didn't naturally know entrepreneurs that I could coach and work with. So I had to spend breakfast, lunch, and dinner networking.

I mean, I was at everything all the time trying to meet entrepreneurs to build the coaching business. And so I was able to do that because thankfully networking and connecting with people was a strength of mine. So it was more intuitive. It wasn't as challenging, but I still had to do all the things. My second business, already, as a nonprofit executive for the decades, I already had contacts. I already knew people in these worlds. I didn't have to go back and create that. The third thing was,

Do they see you as an answer to the problem, their problem that they have? And again, I wasn't an experienced business and life coach at that time. I didn't have a decades long business to be able to coach an entrepreneur. Again, I was successful in what I did, but as a nonprofit executive, if I can say, I've had 30 years experience as a nonprofit executive, and by the way, I have more than that, I just don't say that because I don't wanna age myself too much there. But I have a lot of experience.

Amanda Kaufman (12:37)

3D is a nap.

Kim Fisher (12:39)

I have a lot of experience in what I do. I'm a chief executive. And so immediately I create credibility when I'm having a conversation. I don't have to build that very, very, very much. And then the fourth reason is can people pay you? And again, entrepreneurs that are starting out, know as coaches that often people want the coaching, but they can't afford it, don't want to pay it for whatever reason. And that's definitely a barrier to overcome.

Now in my current world, by definition work with people that can't afford to pay me. Nonprofits by definition can't afford to pay you. And it's really kind of funny as I don't say this to very many clients, but what goes on in my mind, they say, I can't afford you. I'm just a nonprofit when I feel like saying it, but you know who's not? Me. I'm not a nonprofit. I spent my career not making very much money, not doing all the things as a nonprofit executive. But anyway, so people have to be able to pay you.

And the reality is for me, I am not inexpensive. I'm not the most expensive out there in the field that I'm in, but I'm not inexpensive at all. And my feeling is in the work that I do is if they can't pay my fees, then they have no business starting a nonprofit because they can't raise money. It's a litmus test.

Amanda Kaufman (13:46)

That was my whole

thing is like, I had to learn along the way what is the difference between a nonprofit and a for-profit. And it was, I can't even tell you exactly who spelled this out for me, but it made a huge difference. And it was like, nonprofit does not mean no money. It means that you actually are a steward of money.

Kim Fisher (14:06)

Exactly.

Amanda Kaufman (14:12)

which means you're attracting money and then you're stewarding that money to, yes, people who probably cannot pay for whatever reason, but you're buying the services, you're buying the materials, or you're rallying the volunteers, like you're doing all of these things. It's not that you're just magicing good things out of thin air, it's that you are stewarding cash flow towards those nonprofit priorities. Whereas for a for-profit organization,

Honestly, a lot of businesses really are not profitable, right? I don't care what kind of business we're talking about, why? Because you have to pay for the client acquisition. You have to have that presence in the marketplace. Your time is worth something. You got the rent, you got the groceries, you got the kid that's going off to college, whatever the thing is, that like there's a cost to you spending the time. And so I'd love for you to...

Kim Fisher (14:58)

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (15:06)

quickly unpack for me. Like if somebody's like, you know what, I think I might want to start a nonprofit because I want to serve an audience that doesn't traditionally have the capacity to pay. I really think that like my coaching expertise or my other expertise would be beneficial to this population. It would be a really good thing in the world. Like what's your quick checklist or quick hit list of things of like, yes, you should pursue that.

Kim Fisher (15:12)

you

Yeah.

Amanda Kaufman (15:31)

or maybe you might recommend another course of action if they really want to serve that population.

Kim Fisher (15:36)

Yeah, great. So I've got another, I have another four things on a list here that people ask me this question. Why do people start nonprofits, first of all? And the number one reason why people come to me starting a nonprofit is because they're already doing the work. They're already out on a Saturday feeding the homeless. They're making peanut butter sandwiches and delivering them, or they're doing work with youth, or they're helping orphanages international. I do a lot of international organizations for people.

people that are, a guy I just did who was installing water filters in Uganda and he doing it with all of his own money. So that's very, very common kind of thing. I've worked with a number of actually therapists that wanna start part of their practice, of might, you know, even relevant to the coaching question too, is therapists that are having parts of their practices like they're working with foster care kids or kids from international adoptions, those kinds of things where they want to be able to offer

free or reduced services to these families, kind of as a way of giving back in the world, you know, out of their passion. So I think the first thing is people will start a nonprofit because they want to get charitable donations and they don't want to keep spending all their own money anymore to do that. So would be probably the number one reason why people come to me to start a nonprofit. The number two reason is that people will say, I don't want to do this by myself anymore.

I want a team of people to come and help me. Well, the reality is as a for-profit, someone's not likely to give you money and time for you to make more money if you're for-profit company. So people start their nonprofit piece because that's when they get the volunteers and the other people that say, I have the same passion. I want to join you in this work. That's when you build a board of directors. And of course, that's a significant difference between a for-profit and a nonprofit. It's governed by a group of people. It's not owned by anybody.

Now I have ways that I create boards that protect founders, another conversation for a different time. So a founder can be protected, but at the same time it is governed by a group of people. The third reason is that people want to continue in perpetuity. Right now you and I both have businesses. If we stop our businesses, we either sell the business or we shut it down. Whereas the nonprofit can continue on because it has a board. So their passion, their vision, they want it to have other people continue on without them.

I have a guy I'm getting, in fact I'm starting with working with him today. He's a vet, a Vietnam vet, he unfortunately has bladder cancers towards the end of his life and he wants to create a legacy for something that he wants to do with vets. He has this very specific thing he wants to do and that's what he's doing with that. So he wants something to continue on without him. And then the fourth reason is that people want to separate it out from their personal finances. When you actually have a non-profit you are a corporation.

Amanda Kaufman (18:07)

Mmm.

Kim Fisher (18:23)

liability and those kind of issues are separated from your business and your personal finances. So those are the key reasons. So I would say if somebody is, again, a philanthropic individual who's doing work that's kind of had this passion, and those are really the reasons why people choose to formalize a nonprofit. And one of the things that I will say, Amanda, is that I think that people think that

Amanda Kaufman (18:29)

Mm-hmm.

Kim Fisher (18:50)

You've got to be like this Mother Teresa to start a nonprofit. And I'll tell you, you know, I work with, in fact, I have a newsletter I call Everyday Heroes. The people that I work with are everyday people just like you and me. And they have a passion. Normally there's something that's happened. Often, like I've had parents that have had kids that have been disabled, they've learned some things in that journey and they want to share it with other people. And I mentioned again, that this veteran.

Again, people that have fed the homeless. mean, those are common things. I have people that help people, going back to the coaching dynamic. A woman I worked with in Georgia, she was doing coaching with high school students, getting them ready for college. And they were underserved communities, getting them ready for college. Well, she actually formalized her nonprofit so that she could get grants and do other things like that to help them. But I would just say, I'll just kind of...

summarize this too, one of the challenges of starting a nonprofit is that it's starting a business on steroids. I mean, we think starting a business is hard, but the difference is, for starting a business, I mean, like you and I, I have a product that people buy from me. They want the product, they buy it. It's whether they wanna buy it from me or from my competitor, but they buy a product because they want it. Nonprofits, you've gotta sell an idea. So you're selling, like when I was with Arms of Love, I had to make you a man to care about a Nicaraguan orphan.

Amanda Kaufman (20:07)

Mm-hmm.

Kim Fisher (20:13)

and why you should send your hard-earned money to Nicaragua so that Nicaraguan orphan had a chance to go to school and have a future. So there's some interesting excitement and a wonderful journey in the nonprofit world, but certainly some challenges.

Amanda Kaufman (20:27)

I love this conversation, Kim. And thank you so much for walking us through that and the decision making. Everyday Heroes, it's a newsletter, right? How can people get access to that?

Kim Fisher (20:38)

Yeah, and I write this, it goes out monthly about just stories about my clients. And I have a website, my website is www.visioncatalyst.org. And there's a link on there for resources and you can click the resources and push the button and I get notification, you end up on my email newsletter list. again, just sharing stories about the everyday average people that have a passion to change the world.

Amanda Kaufman (21:07)

Dear listener, I know that's you. So do make sure that you go and check that out. And we've got all of Kim's links, her social media, all that stuff in the show notes. Kim, thank you so much for your time today.

Kim Fisher (21:19)

Thank you so much for letting me share. Like I said, I feel it's a great gift. what I find is that people are starting nonprofits at an even increasing rate. And I believe very much my business grew during 2020. And I think that after what we went through in the world in 2020, that people have woken up as we have all kind of made changes in our lives and people are saying, how can I make a difference? What can I do? What's my mark?

Amanda Kaufman (21:43)

there's that pressure causing

pivots, right? And I saw the same thing actually in the coaching space that a lot of coaching businesses really grew in 2020. Whether you are building something that is for profit or whether you are, I really personally just think as a business owner, it's really important to know why you're making money.

Kim Fisher (21:46)

Exactly.

Mm-hmm.

Amanda Kaufman (22:05)

And

whether you are an entrepreneur and you're like, hey, I don't want that board of directors. I want to be able to be nimble. I want to go. I want to go fast. Right? Like that's amazing. And also just have a plan for what is your give back, whether it's going to be that voluntary time, whether that's going to be services in kind, whether that's going to be writing a big fat check or working with Kim.

and setting something up that is unique and tapping into your entrepreneurial spirit that way. And I think what's really cool about this conversation is that no matter what you do, you're gonna need to build those influence skills. You're gonna need to build those advertising presence skills. choosing to go the nonprofit way does not necessarily mean it's easier, but I hope it's a little bit easier when you get to know people like Kim.

Kim Fisher (22:44)

Yes.

Amanda Kaufman (22:53)

Who make a living just like showing people how to do it and like that's amazing amazing amazing dear listener We're gonna be back with another episode. So make sure you don't forget to hit that subscribe button and If you love this, make sure you share it with a few friends Just grab the link to the episode send it to them on text if I hope that you've got friends that are you know considering contributing to nonprofits Considering how their business is gonna have a socially positive impact no matter what they do

So do share this with a few of your friends. And finally, if you're loving the show, if you've listened to it a few times and you're like, dang, I wish more people could listen to it, the number one way you can help is to leave a review. So if you could leave us an honest review of the show, we are just so grateful for you taking the 30 seconds to do that because it helps a new listener decide whether they want to spend 20 minutes with us. All right, with all of that, I will see you in a future episode. And until then, make sure you do what matters.